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-psycledelics- » Discussions » MAIN BOARD » Psycle2Buzz Adapter
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pooplog
Psycle Developer



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The main difference between buzz and psycle is:

buzz is a buggy app with no quality control for machines. over 85% of the machines for buzz have memory leaks, exception errors and the like. I know, i personally stress tested over 280 of them, and found the bugs in many of the ones i had source for. before i joined the psycle team, i was an author of buzz plugins. buzz is an app that is stuck, development wise, there will never be a new version of it. in short, it's a piece of shit.

Psycle is a stable app with only 1 buggy native machine (jm drum), which is a port of a buggy buzz machine in the first place. Psycle continues to evolve.

quote:
c) Psycle is still too much linked with FT2-like tracker
world and i think it needs to change since the
basement the interface and the sequencer if it wants
to became a really interesting project (and so add
more devz to the staff);



why don't you help out then? you can't just sit here and complain that psycle isn't a buzz clone and expect us to take all the whining seriously. also, the ft2-like tracker is what draws people to psycle in the first place. buzz is for making stupid dance tracks, psycle is for making music.

As for the gui for machines, druttis is working on that.


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10.04.2003, 18:07 Profile of pooplog Add pooplog to your Buddy-List Homepage of pooplog
Pikari




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..ALL dance tracks aren't stupid..


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Last edited by Pikari on 10.04.2003, 20:56 o'clock.

10.04.2003, 20:56 Profile of Pikari Add Pikari to your Buddy-List Homepage of Pikari Add Pikari to your Contact-List
DANCEnRg




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quote:
Original by Pikari
..ALL dance tracks aren't stupid..



Correct Dude in fact all tracks are Dance tracks because all you need is a Rhythm too Dance too.

Genre specification can be very miss-leading .

I Feel the points that we should be taking into consideration are the ones which will make psycle more flexible for the many kinds of musicians and their different styles of preferred music & not getting into too much squabbling of which program or music is best.because like with all things their isn't a best one,theirs only preferred taste.

I Agree with Lad project about psycle attracting more developers,especially developers with different music tastes as this will help psycle to progress as a flexible to which succeed.

I agree with what pooplog says about how buzz can be buggy and unstable.So why is Buzz so Popular?Because it's not best just for one kind of music,because of the large amount of machines and developers it is very flexible and adaptive to make many kinds of music.

weather it's the beautifully written song with a great melody to lift the emotions or the technically designed Intelligent dance song to make you move too that different groove.


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10.04.2003, 21:19 Profile of DANCEnRg Add DANCEnRg to your Buddy-List Homepage of DANCEnRg
DANCEnRg




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quote:
Original by ladproject



b) Psycle sounds great, especially for pads and
ambient stuff but has few machines while Buzz has
a big quantity of machines (dont tell me about Vst!
i know i can use VST but i hate them and i prefere
native stuff anyways...)




"dont tell me about Vst!
i know i can use VST but i hate them and i prefere
native stuff anyways...)"


Give me one genuine reason why freeware VST's are a lessor form of Instrument than a native machine

Theirs thousands too choose from and most are fully configurable ( well in some hosts ) .

Many freeware VST's are developed and coded to a professional or high expertise level.

And most of all them can be used By everyone in what ever program they choose, because VST's and Direct X Plug-ins are the most cross program plug-in instruments and effects on the internet.

And Allot of them sound Superb!

Sure Native plug-ins are cool too, but you'll never have one music program having enough Instrument/effect developers to compete with the huge amount of VST Developers.

What on Earth do you Hate about VST'S Dude_project?





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10.04.2003, 22:20 Profile of DANCEnRg Add DANCEnRg to your Buddy-List Homepage of DANCEnRg
ladproject




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quote:
What on Earth do you Hate about VST'S Dude_project?


this is not the right place to talk about this..
check buzzmachines.com board, i talked about this point a lot in the past...


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11.04.2003, 17:14 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
ladproject




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quote:
buzz is a buggy app with no quality control for machines.


what do u mean for quality control?

quote:
over 85% of the machines for buzz have memory leaks, exception errors and the like. I know, i personally stress tested over 280 of them, and found the bugs in many of the ones i had source for.


there are nice machines and crappy machines. i use buzz since 3+ years and i never noticed that 85% of machines have errors.. some machines crash or corrupt your songs, ok.. but they are a 15% in my knowdledge..
many of them are well known, so they are used only by who doesnt know they crashes!

your machines crashes a lot for example.. why?

quote:
buzz is an app that is stuck, development wise, there will never be a new version of it. in short, it's a piece of shit.


"its a piece of shit".. why are u so hostile? just say that you dont know how use it or just say you dont like it..

what do u think if i write "pooplog machines are pieces of shit"..? insults are not a civil way of discussing..

quote:
Psycle is a stable app with only 1 buggy native machine (jm drum), which is a port of a buggy buzz machine in the first place.


jm drum is a porting of waht machine?

quote:
Psycle continues to evolve.


i used it since 1.5 years but i didn't notice yet any real evolution.. do u refer to the skins? or to the newest plugins? or to the gui of the master?


quote:
why don't you help out then? you can't just sit here and complain that psycle isn't a buzz clone and expect us to take all the whining seriously.


ksn can confirm that 1+ year ago i emailed him because i was interested to make the Italian traslation of Psycle and Psycle docs.. he said me to wait 'cause Psycle official manual was coming.. now its April 2003 and i still dont see this manual..

i posted also a lot of opinions that ksn applied immediately here.. (read my posts on this board)

so as you see i dont sit down and criticize! im contributing to the psycle scene 'cause i like to give back something when i receive something..

if u refer to C++ coding, im not a developer sorry..
i know Html and i like to make some gfx stuff but i dont think this could help a lot..


quote:
buzz is for making stupid dance tracks, psycle is for making music.


u are again in hostile mood.. listen to my tracks or to Hamster Alliance tracks and u will notice that with Buzz you can make more more more than 4/4 crappy stuff..


quote:
As for the gui for machines, druttis is working on that.


happy to know this...




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11.04.2003, 17:37 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
ladproject




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...and... i puntualize: this is not a pro-buzz adversting compain..

people seems to defend Psycle by me (the Buzz invader!)...

im not promoting anything, im just trying to build up a discussion..

clarifies sometimes are needed...

lad_


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11.04.2003, 17:48 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
ksn




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may i drop my 2 cents on this debate here (most being some answer to ladproject's post)

i've been using both Psycle and Buzz since their early alpha stages (i'm a regular registered Buzz user).

i think that merely comparing working with these 2 softs *today* is out of objective argumentation.
this is a debate between a tracker-style program and a want-to-be-a-'real'-sequencer-but keep-the-tracker-feeling soft
so it's a matter of both habbit and how you like to compose (per machine or per pattern-ie parts of songs)
but
before today, there was a time when Psycle was a Buzz clone (there's even been a strong debate on some Psycle's sources copied illegally from Buzz) with the same approach. it is not anymore.

so, concerning the evolution of both programs : it's true Psycle evolved a lot, while Buzz stayed frozen (lad, if the features you mention are the only new ones you saw, then you don't really use Psycle, cause there've been a *lot* of features added, and many things optimized).
concerning this evolution : yes, Psycle continues, and yes the next evolutions will be major ones, like new sampler, new machines api and ... *multi-pattern sequencing*!
so with this last feature, are we back to 'Buzz-clone' days ?
not at all, the devs want to implement it differently, more efficiently, giving more liberty (the multi-pattern in Buzz is imo at the same time it's strongest and weakest point versus trackers, because of its limitation. it seems to give you freedom but also constrains you a lot...)

next point : machines. the main advantage of Buzz on this subject is that it was created before (yes Oskari had a really *good* idea), so there are lots of plugins. but lad it is *true* that there are, sadly, lots of bad and useless machines. anyway, i agree that if you only keep the good ones, there are still more Buzz machines than Psycle ones.
Psycle machines are imo quite good on average, none are bad, and some are excellent (i won't tell which ones because i want to keep the plugins coders happy hehe )
another difference between Psycle and Buzz : Buzz plugins are voluntarly released freely, while Psycle team want it to be kept organized and centralized. why ? to avoid those crappy machines and -always-beat-can-crash-a-lot syndrom...

finally, concerning the community : yes, a manual has been planned for ages and is still not here today. Psycle is open-source, so it lives only by the good will of people involved in the project (while Buzz lived thanks to its developer). it has cons : manual not ready, development than can go from very active to nearly frozen, often not as stable as it should be, risk of lacking some long term plans etc... it has also pros : Psycle is not dead (it should have been when Arguru stopped coding it if he hadn't released the sources) while Buzz 1 is (i hope to see Buzz 2 exist some day)...
i'm sure you see my point, ladproject...

a small conclusion word (or let's say several words ) : Buzz used to be something revolutionnary. i remember falling in love with it at first sight. i also remember regretting when Arguru decided to bring Psycle back to a classical tracker interface. Buzz is a very powerful peace of software and i agree a skilled Buzz user can do anything with it (listen to some of Tao's buzz songs if you want to be convinced....)
but it's also true that a multi-pattern sequencing 'ala' Buzz (also seen in Orion) can lead most musicians to something very repetitive (what Pooplog pointed out imo).
i know some Buzz users who can't used Psycle (or any other program) and i know psycle users who can't use Buzz (or any other program). it's just the matter of the one you feel better with, the perfect music program will *never* exist.

finally, i use several programs to make music : Psycle of course, Orion also, and Buzz still sometimes (but i don't like it's overall sound today).
i'm proud to support Psycle because it's free and open-source, and because the dev team cares about it, its users and their needs. it's aimed to be developed as a community project, the only one concerning music composing programs (afaik).
and this will always be for me the *best* argument for Psycle versus *any* other programs

i'm sure i forgot a lot of things i wanted to say but who cares...


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11.04.2003, 19:15 Profile of ksn Add ksn to your Buddy-List Homepage of ksn Add ksn to your Contact-List
MrToast




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>>dont tell me about Vst!
i know i can use VST but i hate them and i prefere
native stuff anyways...

This attitude always intrigues me. There are so many beautiful free VSTis available. There is nothing native that's anything like Dirtbag, iBlit, or Drumatic. I can't imagine _not_ using them in Psycle.

11.04.2003, 20:19 Profile of MrToast Add MrToast to your Buddy-List
DANCEnRg




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QUOTE]Original by ladproject


quote:
Psycle continues to evolve.


i used it since 1.5 years but i didn't notice yet any real evolution.. do u refer to the skins? or to the newest plugins? or to the gui of the master?

[/QUOTE]



Lad project that is because the Evolution is so slow that you actually never see the changes, and just like with life their is a huge amount of this evolving stage of different life forms missing form actual life.

In fact all specific genres of life in their relative category's seem to be pretty much at the same stage of so called evolution.All Sheep have the same sheep like sheepy things,all dolphin's are very much all dolphin like.Cows are cows with no Advanced or more or lessor evolved cow being in existence.
You may ask ,so where have all these stages of evolution gone apart form the ones that they have in museums which look just like different animals.

The Ape is the Ape with no slightly evolved ape that suddenly understands & has humor ,so it becomes a politician and sells capitalism too it's fellow apes. thus a system evolves that the apes exchange bananas and who has the most bananas has the most power.The Bananas are free and are already growing on the tree,but hey they are only apes.


Me feels if something has a progress mind thus lives a progressive life, looking for physical changes else where is just a matter of mistaken cause and effect.

P.s - No dis-respect intended if you were hoping to grow wings in the next billion years.

I Wish! mind you only if they were detachable,but Ya can't have detachable living bits because every peace is a part of what you are.





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12.04.2003, 00:45 Profile of DANCEnRg Add DANCEnRg to your Buddy-List Homepage of DANCEnRg
DANCEnRg




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quote:
Original by ksn
the perfect music program will *never* exist.





Enjoyed reading that, nice one.

Or too look @ it @ a different angle,the perfect music program is the one you have Now,in the present, because the future never actually arrives until it's right here @ present point 1 ,I-E - NOW! The only Actual time.

Though we can have fun continually changing our ideas to suit our new ideals of a progressive perfection,or get frustrated that software can't progress as fast as the mind's of musicians and artists and nothing can progress faster than the sound or the way we hear it.


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12.04.2003, 01:12 Profile of DANCEnRg Add DANCEnRg to your Buddy-List Homepage of DANCEnRg
ladproject




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quote:
another difference between Psycle and Buzz : Buzz plugins are voluntarly released freely, while Psycle team want it to be kept organized and centralized. why ? to avoid those crappy machines and -always-beat-can-crash-a-lot syndrom...


this means that every machine has to be approved by the devz team before be released?? you dont think this will not encourage developers to make machines for psycle?


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14.04.2003, 09:21 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
ksn




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ladproject, again, the aim is not to have as many machines as Buzz, but to have good and complementary machines.

we already have more than 40 machines, it's not so bad


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14.04.2003, 09:29 Profile of ksn Add ksn to your Buddy-List Homepage of ksn Add ksn to your Contact-List
ladproject




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quote:
you dont think this will not encourage developers to make machines for psycle?


"encourage" means to have more devz interested into Psycle thingy..

lad_


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14.04.2003, 14:55 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
FingerSoup




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AFAIK, anyone can develop and release plugins. They'll get support from the dev team so long as it isn't illegal/opposed (like the Buzz plugin that Oskari told us to stop).

The trick, is that the plugins will not be released HERE, unless approved by the dev team. for them to be released, they must be "Bug Free (TM)" so that they don't crash Psycle. I think that is fair to enforce... If BUZZ had this kind of enforcement, I think that there would be less plugins, but also, less half-finished plugins that have been released to the general public for consumption and destruction. It also requires the commitment of a plugin coder to stand behind their work, (or possibly to have their code maintainable by someone who is willing to stand behind it).

So, if the INCENTIVE of being "recognized" by the development team as an official plugin to be released WITH psycle and its plugin packs, seems like too much of a burden, then don't release the plugin here. As an end-user, I am glad that the dev team only posts clean plugins here. I see no hinderance to devoted plugin coders... Only incentive to put more work in to write a better plugin.


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ladproject




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this sounds so elitè-ish..
a so closed-scene for an open-source project...
weird..

i cant imagine what could happen if someone will make a new portal about psycle (something like the buzzmachines.com vs buzzxp.com thingy!)...

another site with psycle machines WITHOUT dev-team elitè permission... what could happen?

just wondering and pushing you to reflect...
for a better (and more open..) scene...

ps. can someone create another psycle-related portal? or also the dev-team must give the permission first..??


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[JAZ]
Psycle Developer



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What if you stop saying nonsenses?


When I wasn't a developer yet, I was the first that "released" a machine that wasn't made by arguru (JMDrum), and the truth is that it's the worse that psycle has right now.

Right then, I was already told not to go that fast, because the quality can suffer from this. Did that stop me to make it better or decreased my interest in Psycle?


Also, think about buzz again. Buzzmachines was created not to distribute plugins, but to have a place to find the ones you were missing. That's as painful as having to search for the VST's you are missing.

About other sites about Psycle.. I would say there are some already, mostly homepages with information about psycle.
We, as a comunity, will be against a page that would rival Psycledelics instead of complementing it.
(Dividing the information and the comunity is not going to provide a better program)

In the end, we don't force anyone to do things for Psycle. What we ask is that if this is done, it is done with care and order. (Sometimes it is not done and that's when problems appear)


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pooplog
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I think what ladproject is saying is that although he has no interest in assisting with the development of psycle, those of us who are developing it are some closed minded faction of assholes that refuse to let anyone join us, and have some sort of hidden adjenda.

Infact, the situation is entirely the opposite. We welcome all newcomers openly, and offer help, encouragement and support to anyone who needs it, which is a lot more than I got when i was working on buzz plugins, for example. I would rather write an email back to someone who has a lot of questions about psycle's API or how part of the core works than write a response to rediculous posts (like this one) on the boards.

All anyone has to do to have a plugin released here is send it to ksn who maintains the archive and writes the news - it will be tested to make sure it doesn't blow up the universe, then popped into the zip. done. ksn's a friendly guy, there's no worries. Infact, it's easier than having a machine posted on buzzmachines.

I have no idea where these people get their ideas. Compare the channels if you don't believe me. #psycle vs #buzz - where's the eliteism again? I'm too old for that crap anyway. I think compos are a silly idea, too, they encourage that sort of thinking: "I did better than you in the polls, bitch." nonsense.

I'm all for psycle documentation and fanpages, the more the merrier. But, by having a centralized information network (ie this webpage, cvs and #psycle), we can keep everyone on the same page easily and efficiently. We can assure that all information that is public is up to date and relevant-and that everyone has access to the same machine base. Any other reasons that your conspiracy crazed mind conceives are due to your own paranoid insanity.



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14.04.2003, 20:40 Profile of pooplog Add pooplog to your Buddy-List Homepage of pooplog
ksn




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ladproject, first i find you rather aggresive (if not more) on the subject which is strange because it's not the way you used to act here, and i don't see what's your point in doing this. i'm sure you have a good reason to do so, otherwise it's a total nonsense.

secondly, i do prefer some kind of centralized resources for opensource project than a mess and difficulties to find resources.

we're far from being an important opensource project, but think about what Mozilla would be if it was not centralized (and even very heavily centralized) - take Miranda or Gaim as smaller examples if you wish -
in fact i don't see so many opensourceprojects that are not centralized....

maybe you're right and all these opensoure coders are all selfish and close-minded... you might call me arrogant but i do prefer thinking that we are right and that we chose the good solution.

you say we're elitists, and that we want to keep our Psycle for ourselves.... that tends to show how few you know both the program and the 'community'... that might be the explanation then....

finally what would be the point in making another portal for Psycle ? we're a small project with a small community... and people would don't like the site as it is can easily offer their help ! we ask for help from time to time and nearly never get any... so where are all those good-willing people that we're supposed to frustrate in forbidding any unauthorized publications ?????


ps : i'm definitly way too old to take care of ego problems concerning Psycle if that's what you're afraid of... supporting Psycle site is done with my money on my leisure time and it's a pleasure. i wouldn't have done this if it was for ego wars and dick length competition


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14.04.2003, 22:30 Profile of ksn Add ksn to your Buddy-List Homepage of ksn Add ksn to your Contact-List
ladproject




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sorry for late answer, i was out for a while..

dudes, i dont write nonsense, i just write some opinions maturated chatting with other ppl on #buzz..
many buzzers are really against psycle and psycle centralized community..

with my posts i just tried to give you another point of view, i thinked this could help the PSycle scene, but maybe i was wrong or maybe u thinked i wanted to destroy your kindergarden.. so excuse me!

topic closed.
later (hope in minus aggressive mood from your side)

laD_


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29.04.2003, 09:45 Profile of ladproject Add ladproject to your Buddy-List Homepage of ladproject
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