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From Hakyoku Seiken on 05.11.2004, 19:27:

  Which one...psycle or buzz...?

Hey there. New here. I'm currently in the middle of a personal crisis of which to use...Buzz or Psycle. I was using Orion Platinum, but I decided I'd not use anymore pirated junk and stick to truly freeware for my music projects (that way I can get real user and/or programmer support and help if I need it... )

Anyway, I've gone through a list of pros and cons to each and I ask that on any of the items on the list here you wish to add something to that you feel is relevant, please do.

1.) GUI -
* Buzz - ugly, but works.
* Psycle - very nice and customizable to boot.

Winner here is psycle. Graphics go a long way with me. And no flickering when moving around machines either...whee!

2.) Sound Quality -
* Buzz - very harsh with bare sound, but workable to enough to get a wide variety of sounds.
* Psycle - ultra nice. Actually has better output quality than Orion at the same output frequency. Very warm and inviting, but tweakable to get meaner.

Winner here is psycle. Without any effects at all, a sketch song sounds more polished than some mixed down buzz tracks. Some people with good ears may recognize the tool, though, if they use it, however, such as fruityloops is very recognizable in it's 'sound'.

3.) CPU Usage -
* Buzz - can easily handle a large array of machines at once and show little sign of struggle. I've seen songs using upwards of 30 machines and barely crack the 5-10% CPU usage mark.
* Psycle - a bit taxing on the CPU, but really no more than the average VST host.

Winner here is buzz. Though buzz does start to eat up a little CPU with it's VST loader. Pscyle's built in instruments seem to be generally more taxing than buzz's native plugins.

4.) Interface -
* Buzz - seems daunting at first, especially if you've never used a tracker before. The first time I used it, I was well into my second year of tracking and it still made me scratch my head for a while. However, once used to it, the interface was very well thought out, and the ability to stack patterns of different machines next to each other in a non-linear style made for greater flexibility and less wasted effort in writing.
* Psycle - seems daunting at first glance as well, but is actually pretty simple, even for a tracker, as everything can be controlled by the mouse, if the user is so inclined to be so lazy and not learn the keyboard short cuts. Everything you could possibly need has a button or easily accessable menu. However, patterns are set up in old tracker style, so songs have to be written one pattern at a time, all instruments sharing the same patterns.

Winner here is neither. Buzz may be annoying to figure out, but the pattern offsetting more than makes up for it. As well, you don't need the manual for any machine as you can see in what each column and even each perameter does AS you change it or move the cursor. Psycle's lack of pattern offsetting is kind of a step backwards...and a separate text file is needed for the sampler commands, but everything else is easy to figure out.

5.) Stability -
* Buzz - with so many machines, sometimes it's a wonder that it can keep from crashing at all...however, it can't fight bugs and win everytime. It crashes on me at least once a jam session.
* Psycle - Although I haven't played around with loading a lot of songs or even vsts, it hasn't crashed on me once, though sometimes the sound pops and clicks or goes out altogether (happened when I was making a 4 to the floor kick track and I set the steps to 4 and held down a key with the built in drum synth selected...had to create a new song to fix it).

Winner here is psycle. To boot, it's actually still in development. Buzz does have a huge user base due to it's age, but with no one who wrote the program giving a flying flip about it anymore, it means the bugs that plague it have found a permanant home.

6.) Ease of Use -
* Buzz - I buzzed quite a bit when it was first released, so I was already familiar with it by the time psycle came out. It seems natural, and even coming back to it 3 years later having not touched it, it was like riding a bike and I was able to jump back on it like I hadn't missed a day.
* Psycle - with all the menus, you'd think it'd be flawless in this department. However, as noted, I've had to keep notepads open to reference certain items as they come up during usage. Also, there's no official manual, so it becomes a little frustrating and time consuming searching for solutions to problems that come up.

Winner is neither. Buzz is only friendly to me because of the time I invested in it long ago. Psycle is quite easy to jump into, but some key elements are missing to make it usable with no manual needed (I like those kinds of programs...hhehehe)

So as you see, I can't decide. I've been playing around in psycle off and on for about a month now and I've also been toying again in buzz. The stuff I produce in buzz is more intracte, but the sound of psycle is just so pleasing, even if the music made itself is utter crap, it just sounds better....so I'm stuck...

If anyone has any personal experiences or different viewpoints on the matter, I'd love to hear them. I want to stick with one. I think switching back and forth between two programs like I've been doing is hindering me as I'm not quite comfortable with either tool and it affects my time with it. Instead of nothing but uninterrupted brain to sound transfer, there's a bunch of 'what does this do' detours...

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance for suggestions and help.

Copy and paste this link to hear random audio by me, mostly unfinished:


From Taika-Kim on 05.11.2004, 21:52:


Well, ask yourself: with which one you have:
A - more fun
B - get more stuff finished

That's all there is to it in my opinion.

From ksn on 06.11.2004, 01:51:


Original by Hakyoku Seiken
Hey there. New here. ... I decided I'd not use anymore pirated junk and stick to truly freeware for my music projects

Welcome !

I'll only answer concerning the pirated software part for the moment :

I've come to a conclusion, concerning pirated music software, that the biggest threat is not for the commercial pirated software themselves but for freeware programs (and low cost sharewares developed by isolated coders), which are then obviously totaly overlooked and depreciated compared to expansive softs people get for no price.

Using pirated software make people miss some very good freeware stuff, considering them basicaly as less good without even trying them, just because they have no commercial value, while they use softs they didn't pay for but do have such a value.

So my opinion now is : not using pirated software = using more freeware and shareware = giving freeware a better audience = encouraging the development of high quality freeware softs.

In conclusion, not using pirated software might be the best way to 'fight' against companies who sell overpriced commercial sofware.

Funny, isn't it ?

@ksniod on twitter

From TranceMyriad on 06.11.2004, 03:43:


that's the way the world works!



From sampler on 06.11.2004, 13:42:


wtf! is this a philosophy class or kind of??
Psycle is the best!! and it's opens source, Use it! and if u can code it!


Am i going to be the same next year???? Will i use Psycle next years?? :rolleyes:

From Hakyoku Seiken on 06.11.2004, 14:51:


I am a firm believer in freeware, don't get me wrong. I've used freeware products that I can't believe ARE free (Simsynth is one). Curiosity of commercial software ultimately got the best of me, though, and I ended up using Orion for about a year. But then I though, "You know, I've used stuff just as powerful that I didn't have to search on a P2P progam for a cracked version before...this software is good, but I really shouldn't be using it, especially since there ARE competitive freeware applications that exist." It would be a different story if Psycle and Buzz and such had never been written (or even Impulse Tracker and Fast Tracker and which I loved Impulse Tracker).

Documentation and neverending support seem to be the main selling points of commercial software (i.e. the technical support teams that exist only to answer your questions and problems and the like) and if a freeware program has strong, knowledgable user base, even that seems overpriced (Orion retails for about $299). It does take a little bit more technical savvy to get some freeware progs working (took a lot of reading and experimenting to figure out how to get cutoff filters working in IT and even Buzz is a little akward with all of it's hacks now) but truth is, it's more rewarding to use them as well. It's like 'sticking it to the man!'.

I'm appreciative of the time and energy put forth by freeware program designers who do it just because they love what they're doing. It's also more refreshing than commercial programs because they can take whatever approach to the software they want without having to market to a certain demographic (Orion and Fruity Loops are obviously geared toward the less knowledgable computer music production wannabes, reguardless of how powerful they are...it's why they have a piano roll and tons of graphics... ). True, it's a hit and miss scenario with them, but the ones that do 'hit' hit really hard!

At any rate, I think I'm going to try Psycle for a while. I just love the sound quality of the program. Buzz has more experimental synths, but it doesn't have that pro-sound to it without putting in lots of extra work. It seems better suited as a side app for getting specific sound and dropping the output into another prog. So, here's to learning Psycle. It's amazing how I'd never heard of this program until 3 months ago. I thought I was usually on top of the sound and CG scene...

Hopefully, if I ask a question here, it won't be redundant to all of you experienced users. I do my best to research as much as possible before giving into having an answer handed to me.

Copy and paste this link to hear random audio by me, mostly unfinished:


From DMNXS on 07.11.2004, 01:09:


The instant I read 'freeware' in reference to SimSynth I thought: "What? Since when?".
SimSynth was freeware till version 1.3, and could be downloaded at the Homepage (later on I think you could still download it at the FruityLoops page and at the old version of www.maz-sound.com). That was version 2.7, which was the final standalone version. Starting from there, it became an internal FL Synth and is to date. Similar stories go to DrumSynth (still downloadable) and TS-404 (maybe still downloadable at old version of www.maz-sound.com), which I have myself.

But to not make this post a complaint to inaccuracy, I agree, but an important factor are bugfreeness and the audio quality of the sound engine and of the effects. Software that fulfills those factors and is free is rare or hard top find without help (i.e. KVR), but it exists, yes. And that's what counts.

From Hakyoku Seiken on 07.11.2004, 02:18:


Sorry, the SimSynth was a typo. Was actually meaning SynthEdit. Doh! :p

SimSynth was good, though. Used to make really nice samples for use in Impulse Tracker.

Copy and paste this link to hear random audio by me, mostly unfinished:


From Taika-Kim on 07.11.2004, 15:32:


That's a good point KSN... It's easy to overlook less-appealing looking and free alternatives when it's easy to pirate software.

I use a lot of pirated software though, often it's just easier to get a sound that I'm satisfied with with them than many freeware synths. The same goes mostly for Psycle synths too, I just somehow don't like the sound of most of them, there's all kinds of irritating features in many of them, etc...

Often it takes time to get to know any one instrument or effect and if it's any good. The problem is that there is SO much free stuff available now. It's very hard to find the good stuff amongst all the mediocrity.

With expensive commercial software you USUALLY get very good soundquality in a very guaranteed way.
I just want to make music and not spend evening after evening toying around with software that I end up discarding anyway in the end.

I think the worst problem is that because of using pirated software the developers of cheap, quality software lose a big amount of potential customers.

I'm guily I know, but I think that information "theft" is not the biggest of crimes, so I can live with it.

I would very much want to support small developers, but hell, for example I have now like 30 euros to live with for the next 4 weeks

Anyway I think that spending money in immaterial products like services and information (software for example!) is good because that creates beneficial economic action without much stress on the environment.
So ecologically-wise it's much better to spend 400 euros on some brand new piece of software than buy a 400 euro synth for example. Still most people prefer the hardware... The material world has a strange kind of attraction to many people.

From Hakyoku Seiken on 09.11.2004, 00:34:


Psycle it is. Funny thing is, the communities of both programs came into play in my choice. Let's just say, Buzz community isn't very receptive to newcomers.

Copy and paste this link to hear random audio by me, mostly unfinished:


From TranceMyriad on 10.11.2004, 07:16:


that's what's so good about the psycle community...everyone's friendly and willing to help ....



From acydl on 22.11.2004, 02:20:

  you are incorrect

the buzz community is much much much better than Psycle. Ask a question in these boards and you have a slim chance of it getting answered in a week, or ever at all. Ask a question on buzzmachines and you get many answers in as little as 15 minutes. ITs clearly the best. Buzz has its own users develop over a billion machines compared to psycles 10 or so internal programs. Also the user developed polac vst machine is the most stable and efficient vst code in the land. the psycle vst support is obviously a complete joke. Many vst's still dont work in psycle and the vst engiine in psycle is not flexible at all.

For instance try entering chords in the sequencer for a vocoder fx. ITs impossible to get it to work. IN buzz its no problem at all. END OF STORY> GAME OVER

From heatseeker on 22.11.2004, 07:08:



the buzz community is really bigger than psycle's one. I only hope its members are not like you (or what i can see in your post).

Only buzz users think there is a competition between Buzz and Psycle.

1rst: don't say to someone he is incorrect when he expresses a point of vue. He has the right to think and to write what he has in mind.

2nd: using "END OF STORY> GAME OVER" or other words like "joke" etc... will not help you to convince someone to listen to your arguments (if you write some of course)

3rd: We appreciate that some new people like you spend their time to participate in Psycle community. It'll help, maybe not like you want.

About the psycledelics, the Psycle's community, we hope to find a way to increase it very soon.

To finish here is my personal opinion: Buzz is good until it crashes because of a dark error somewhere, after few minutes. I tried to use it on 5 machines. unsuccessfully.
I personnaly prefer Psycle for 1 thing: the dev team, the community and the code are really OPENED. You will not see some "fuck Buzz", "Buzz is useless" etc... and we will not burn you on public because you dislike Psycle

take care.

2 whisky valent mieux qu'1 !

From sampler on 22.11.2004, 08:43:


That's right heatseeker.

Well, in my oppinion both of you have reason. Buzz's community is bigger, that is clear. Buzz has lot of machines and guys developing machines and surely polac VST loader is better than Psycle's VST host but i feel way better..... WAY BETTER in Psycle's community. I don't know why, prolly cos i don't like MANY ppl together.... and Psycle has been evolving since it was released, and it is evolving, even i'm trying to make my little additions/fixes to Psycle source code.
About the time to answer in these boards i don't agree with you Acydl. I read these boards every days and try to answer always and i think ppl do the same.

....anyways, Welcome Acydl!
(You can use Psycle together with Buzz )

Am i going to be the same next year???? Will i use Psycle next years?? :rolleyes:

From FingerSoup on 22.11.2004, 18:13:


Original by sampler
(You can use Psycle together with Buzz )

Honestly, I think this sentiment is one shared by most of the psycle community. Psyclers are usually honest about the limitations of their software, and are willing to find workarounds. We don't suffer from "uni-programism", where everything MUST be in one program or the program is not worth using... We share the sentiment of using the best/most convenient tool for the job, as opposed to forcing one tool to do all the jobs. This is why Psyclers are satisfied with Psycle whereas Buzz users typically argue that Buzz is better, based off feature set and age.

What Buzz users typically forget with the age arguement, is that the current release of Buzz's development is dead, and no one cares. The feature set is frozen (except for hacks/patches by 3rd party developers). Users have been waiting for Buzz 2, but have recieved little news if any on the subject.

Does that mean I think Buzz is a useless program though? Nope. I see a long dwindling future ahead of it similar to legacy trackers such as Scream Tracker (It was popular for a long time after it stopped development and near 1:1 replicas such as Impulse Tracker started adding tons of new features), but I see great potential for what it does now, as well as important history in what it has done... Buzz revolutionized the tracker by creating the machine view interface for nextgen trackers. They also created variable pattern layouts (based on machine), which is not my cup of tea, but is certainly very useful for giving you full control of every part of your machine at every note.

Psycle on the other hand, has a more manageable interface with it's standard pattern layout, which suits me better, and I tend to experience less crashes with Psycle. Sure VST isn't perfect.... But it's better than Audacity, so I also use Psycle for post-processing of WAV files. I'm sure this is also something you could do with Buzz and Polac VST, but I'm pleased with what I can do with Psycle.

I thought you beat the inevitability of death to death, just a little bit...

From FingerSoup on 22.11.2004, 18:15:


Duped post - Got a 500 and hit reload.

I thought you beat the inevitability of death to death, just a little bit...

From acydl on 23.11.2004, 04:55:


"For instance try entering chords in the sequencer for a vocoder fx. ITs impossible to get it to work"

LEt me put it in black in white for you Hazuku, Ive been using psycle and buzz for a lot longer than most of these people so i can finally tell you the truth.

Bascially psycle has a better interface for composition based off the FT2 design. ITs awesome. Buzz has an interface that does not let you see all the notes of al lthe instruments at one time in one pattern. This makes it crappy for pop song composition etc, but better for techno and experimental because you have independant pattern control of each instrument.

If you are into VST's and VSTI's psylce will give you a heart attack because some of the plugins do not work or will crash your system. For example Lounge Lizard will destroy your song. Buzz has flawless vst support, but then again if you are trying to compose pop its gonna be hard to write music.

If you are into Samples buzz is fine with wav and xi format. Psycle can import xm's but wont load xi's into the sampler. That strange because it means you have to use maz's xi to wav converter to convert everything or put them in an xm and then load it into psycle. Also it is a pain to apply two tracker effects to a sample note in the pattern editor.

If you are into internal plug ins. Psycle has about 10 and Buzz has about 3000. THe internal plugin's are old and have not been developed in centurys. Buzz has new internal plug ins developed on average about every two weeks. From Ultra cool grannular synths, to easy to use and simple delays etc.

If you are into the live show both programs allow midi controllers to control parameters, but in psycle you have to enter the parameters in hexidecimal. We al know tweaking is a pain.

If you are into development the code for buzz was lost about 3 or so years ago. Thus the main interface for the program will never change. Developers are still developing new features ontop of the main interface though. Psycle is alive and is being developed. LEts see in psycle 1.7 .6.2

"fixed bug in the flanger's optimized sine sequence generator"

lets see in psycle

" fixed OLD bug, VSTi data slider would send data to the VSTi whenever the slider was repainted"

as you can see incredibly important things are being developed to keep psycle flouishing.

THe bottom line is what kind of music are you gonna make. Both trackers are awesome and frustrating at the same time. USE Buzz for techno experimental and live performances. USE psycle for pop, electronica..when you need to compose.

Hopefully you've all read through this essay.
Now that ive pissed everyone off, can somebody please answer my question?

How do i enter chords for a vocoder fx in the pattern page in psycle? I tried checking the "alllow notes for effects" box but that didn't work.

Thanks guys,

peace, and trackers unite!!!


From nolwenn on 23.11.2004, 17:48:


Now that ive pissed everyone off, can somebody please answer my question?

How do i enter chords for a vocoder fx in the pattern page in psycle? I tried checking the "alllow notes for effects" box but that didn't work.

I post a reply to this question in the thread you have created :

Vocoder Help

There are some information about sending note to effect in this thread :

sending note to effect

From nolwenn on 23.11.2004, 17:51:


Now that ive pissed everyone off, can somebody please answer my question?

How do i enter chords for a vocoder fx in the pattern page in psycle? I tried checking the "alllow notes for effects" box but that didn't work.

I post a reply to this question in the thread you have created :

Vocoder Help

There are some information about sending note to effect in this thread :

sending note to effect

From FingerSoup on 24.11.2004, 17:02:


Original by acydl
Hopefully you've all read through this essay.
Now that ive pissed everyone off...

On the contrary.... Had you made such an intelligent explanation of your logic, giving examples of pro's and con's in your first post, I'd agree with you on several (but not all) points... Such as XM/XI support being too quirky(It is quite incomplete right now). I'm not pissed off at all right now

We only get pissed off at the whole "Buzz is just better, don't even bother arguing, because I'm right, and I'm too good to explain why, because any idiot can see that it's better" arguements... or the "See, Buzz does this, and your proggy doesn't, so it's obviously better, IN YO FACE MF!". Even then, we don't flame the crap out of people... We just try and turn it into a coherent arguement, which usually gets the smarter people to make a more logical arguement (and the ignorant fanboys looking to pick a flamewar tend to leave at the sight of big words). Anyone who is willing to have an actual arguement as opposed to a flame war is more than welcome here... We like opinions, so long as you can back them up

I thought you beat the inevitability of death to death, just a little bit...

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