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From bdzld on 15.07.2004, 20:09:

  frustration

dont you think its time for a little less thought and a bit more action on the new psycledelics front? like ksn said, this site is four years old, and feels it.

its great that the moderators put their time into it, but.. a more active updater could be added to the team


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From sampler on 16.07.2004, 09:22:

 

Yes please! Ksn is very busy lately. Psycledelics hasn't still been updated with 1.7.6.2, maybe it would be good that psycledelics points to psycle.sf.net for downloads, as bohan has said.


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From ksn on 16.07.2004, 09:46:

 

ok, i would have really prefered to talk about all this more privatly but as you seem to prefer to do it publicaly, let's go :

well, i also want psycledelics to point to sf, not host the packages anymore. i asked bohan by mp to tell me how he sees things and how we can organize that, some weeks ago and i'm still waiting for an answer. i also asked him about 1.7.6.2 and how it should be presented (the way it is packed on sf is totally different from the packages here). i wanted to have the same approach on sf and here.

concerning the site, we asked many times for a design, because as already said : the code is done (and has been for a long time).

some pleople said they would do it, but we still have nothing. now heatseeker is gone abroad and i have to wait for him to come back here (some weeks).

when [JAZ] was leading the project i got mails or icq messages each time there was something important, or at least he postes messages on the boards, which was a good source for updates.
these things don't exist anymore.

another example : [JAZ] used to tell me (mail or mp etc...) each time a new coder joined (even for a specific thing) the team and so on... sadly i don't even know who is really coding the program now, who the project leader is, etc... the #psycle team seems totally detached from the site... (:very sad:.)

for news about development : there's a special development board here where devs can give news ... which developer asked for being able to do so ? no-one (...)
i also made a mailing list some times ago for developers : it is not used....

so ?

sorry if i can't spend all my time on #psycle.

as for another 'updater' : i would be glad to have help (the new site is supposed to give rights for this), but with this site and its very restrictive structure, the person who updates the site has entire access to the ftp space, something i can't accept sorry (i guess you all understand why).

so yes, there must be new things and new directions for the site, as i said in the news. i really know what i want for the site, and i wish i could talk about this with [JAZ] or well, the new project leader, to build something good and efficient for everyone. but there is nobody i can talk with about this.
sadly there are often many people to ask for things but few to give help when it's time to do so (this might sounds disappointed and frustated but yes i am...)

and the donation project ? who did something ?
contacts with derived psycle projects ? something ?

oh yes i'm very busy but i'd love to announce great news like new versions or donation system for example...

most of you ask for more communication 'outside'. i totally agree ! but don't we need first more communication 'inside' ?


ksn who is really frustrated and demoralised...............


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From sampler on 16.07.2004, 12:11:

 

In some way is reasonable ksn and more psyclers are demoralised. JAZ and pooplog seems to be out of Psycle now. And we all know that they are the right persons to make (at this moment) big things for Psycle. But the situation is not sooooo bad. It's not bad at all. I'd even say psycle is in a good situation.
I feel i know some things that few Psyclers know. Maybe they never come true but there they are and are very possible to happen.
Some things that have happened lately:
Krissce sent his multipattern sequencer sources to JAZ. And i've heard JAZ say that maybe he work with them in August. This means JAZ is not so out of Psycle.
But fortunately each time we have more ppl involved in Psycle coding. We shouldn't forget bohan (right person imo to be the project leader if JAZ can't), alk, magnus, loby, dan(bdzld). Alk is out for around two months. I have no recent news from magnus and loby. Dan seems to be playing with Psycle sources.
And the most important thing by now. Enough76 is porting (or trying to port) psycle project to Dev-C++. And then he will try to remove MFC. He seems to be in serious, we'll see.

And after this... you think there are reasons to be demoralised???? I think nope. I'm not.

And we have a wiki.

If Psycle community is not live. I'm live and i love spend my time with Psycle!!


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Am i going to be the same next year???? Will i use Psycle next years?? :rolleyes:


From DJMirage on 16.07.2004, 13:26:

 

im sorry, that im not around much here :/ I really should.

but hey arent we all looking forward to the new site ?
I would volunteer for news updates, forum mod, (file admin for songbase ??).
im already experienced in maintaining websites (scenerep, sexy biggetje, sexy biggetjes weblog, dutch fitness news).

If the new site is their, you can count on me for that. I'd gladly go into a testing period of a month (to see if you think im qulified).

But thats a while away from now i guess, since the layout is what your waiting for.

I feel more sadly about KSN being demoralised, and other psyclers along with him.
But I think he makes a great point in the communication part and detachment of irc chan with site.
I also would like to point a finger to bohan for the project leader.

cheers


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From ksn on 16.07.2004, 14:32:

 

ok, glad to see positive reactions.

Here are things like i conceive them :

- we really need to improve the internal communication. This was far better before because we had [JAZ] as a project leader. For me he's still the project leader, but i guess he has to say something about this. In case he's not anymore, we need another one. opensource doesn't mean lack of organization. Anyway, for example i didn't know 10 per cent of what sampler said. And i'm supposed to post news and make announcement... True i'm not often on #psycle, but as i said, sadly, #psycle is now really detached form the rest of the 'community'. I really think this should change.
Anyway, mail, icq, msn, PM, there are lots of means to keep in touch.
(btw i think bohan could be a great project leader, (if [JAZ] is deninitly out). He's already really involved in several points concerning Psycle. He's well known and available.)
But the main point is : please let's communicate ! Let's use the dev ML, let's use the dev news board...

- concerning what the site should be : i really want it to be made as soon as heatseeker is available again.
Here's how i see Psycle presence on internet (not in details) : psycledelics site should be the place for official announcements (new versions for example), news, a front-door to Psycle (for example, an official presentation of Psycle).
The boards should be the heart of the site (the new site code has huge improvements in this domain). Users oriented (discussions, help, questions etc...), + developements announcements-news and bug tracking. These boards should be really complete and attractive.
Psycledelics site should be the place to build the development system.
Then, still in an users community view : songs, presets, skins etc... Reviews, interaction etc... (here too the new site will propose huge improvements).
Another remark : i really wish the new site is more open : i hope the participation of users for news, boards animation and so on...

- concerning what the site shoudn't be : psycledelics site shouldn't host or present any package of Psycle : all should be hosted and maintained on SF. Psycledelics site should then point directly to the concerned pages on SF : for official releases and for alpha or beta versions. This means a bit of organization first of course.
Psycledelics site should provide some official documentation perhaps, should provide interactive help on the boards for sure, but developement of the help files and docs etc... should be left to the wiki. I've been thinking about something like this for a long time, hoping to implement it directly here, but on SF it's ok of course.

these are just some remarks, i won't go in more details for now, i hope some of you will reply and say their words about all this.


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From DJMirage on 16.07.2004, 18:06:

 

[17:54] <Antonio3> did i miss something ?
[17:55] <_alk_> http://psycle.pastnotecut.org/thread.php...did=1&styleid=1
[18:00] <Antonio3> make a built in to do list in psycle itselfe etc, let IT be the project manager
[18:01] <Antonio3> bugtracking etc all the same, inside the app
[18:02] <Antonio3> why waste time for a fancy homepage
[18:02] <Antonio3> the download button is all it needs
[18:02] <Antonio3> help, forum and all can be in the app
[18:03] <Antonio3> it would connect ALL users with psycle development
[18:03] <Antonio3> not just the one visiting the hp
[18:03] <Antonio3> also update manager into psycle
[18:03] <_alk_> nice idea
[18:04] <Antonio3> sure it would take time to code all that
[18:04] <_alk_> post it!
[18:04] <Antonio3> but hey it would be FUCKING GREAT and INNOVATIVE
[18:04] <_alk_> heh
[18:04] <_alk_> great yep
[18:04] <tetha> integrating a cgi:irc of psycle ?
[18:04] <Antonio3> can you post ?= i dont have account
[18:04] <tetha> into the program hohoho
[18:04] <tetha> make it a sexy little chatbox.
[18:05] <Antonio3> (see you just lost one post, if it would be in the app with no reg needed


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From bdzld on 16.07.2004, 19:10:

 

I hope there isn't any harm in being public about the frustrations.. but it -is- frustrating, thanks for responding all. So.. the question is, how to make it better, and I'm glad that this is in the open, so that people can say what they feel, and maybe the problems can be sorted.

KSN - you're right - you have the keys to this site, and need to be kept in the picture about what is happening. I'm not sure my recent mucking about with the code qualifies as that heh.. but for other people's stuff, like bohan's, alk's, magnus' recent efforts, its important that people know. its a real shame that the communication between #psycle and here is so limited, but the difference in style and ease makes it very counter-intuitive to come from efnet, to a slow, sometimes crashy website, no matter how much you want to enthuse about new stuff - how do you see the links working between the chatters and the posters? The boards here are frustratingly slow, and like i said, sometimes crashy too, and the dev-list is very hidden.. but both are good resources, especially with a possible new backend code and a nice crisp layout for the site!

I'm just some chump who hangs about on efnet too much, so don't take too much notice of me, but I'd like a fast, fun site to use, instead of one that feels like it needs a good dusting..

yours, off to check the compo board.. (DMNXS' track was my preference heh.. )


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From bdzld on 16.07.2004, 19:19:

 

quote:
concerning what the site shoudn't be : psycledelics site shouldn't host or present any package of Psycle : all should be hosted and maintained on SF. Psycledelics site should then point directly to the concerned pages on SF : for official releases and for alpha or beta versions. This means a bit of organization first of course.


This is a good idea.


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++


From DMNXS on 16.07.2004, 23:44:

 

quote:
Original by bdzld
yours, off to check the compo board.. (DMNXS' track was my preference heh.. )


Woah !!! Hard to believe that there are fellow Speedcore lovers here (I know you like hard stuff but didn't expect this )

Anyway, glad to hear at least somebody did the multipattern code... And I hope the new site has the functions I'm used to at MPC, BDR forums and since early this year also from United Trackers. Then it would be much more enjoyable ... not to say that the current status is bad... it really isn't so bad...


From BJohan on 17.07.2004, 04:07:

 

quote:
Original by sampler
Yes please! Ksn is very busy lately. Psycledelics hasn't still been updated with 1.7.6.2, maybe it would be good that psycledelics points to psycle.sf.net for downloads, as bohan has said.



Hi,

It's my fault if ksn hasn't put 1.7.6.2 at psycledelics yet: weeks ago, ksn posted me a private message inviting me to talk with him about the way we should package the new version so that it's easy to use for the users. For some lame technical reasons, i didn't answer him until yesterday.

Please don't blame him!


From BJohan on 17.07.2004, 04:53:

 

Just some note about who worked on the sources recently...

Most communications went, indeed, thru the #psycle irc channel, and we didn't echoed them much to the boards...

First, i wouldn't say JAZ is completly out of Psycle development, he's been far more present recently than in the past months, and he's been showing interest in planning future developments.

Past month (or was that two months ago?), there's been a coding frenesy on Psycle involving alk, zealmange (magnus), me, and even JAZ at some point, to recode its internals and make it more stable. Lobywang also joined the dev team to add some features to the wave editor.

The current code in the CVS has hence changed a lot since 1.7.6.2, but we can't release it yet because of an obscur bug that appears when we turn the compiler optimizations on. (actually, there seems to have two bugs).

On a side note, i've just been talking with Guillaume about porting psycle to GNU/Linux, we're both still motivated, and actually, i must say that's the only direction that motivates me. One of the reason is that the mswindows platform is really cubersome for doing developments... It lacks all the tools that are needed for source code project maintainance. So, i find it completly silly to involve my time on these perpetual tasks, while i know it's already all integrated and automated on GNU/Linux distros.

Fortunatly for mswindows users, it will prolly be as easy as a double-click to run a linux app inside mswindows by the end of the year, as great innovations to integrate linux with mswindows are in the way ;-)


From BJohan on 17.07.2004, 05:56:

 

Could we clarify a bit where each kind work and communication should go, and what tool we should use for each?

For example, concerning source code, we need a shared storage space whose write access is restricted to devers, and read access is public. It's clear that sourceforge is the right place to host it, using CVS (or maybe a more modern versionning system). Since CVS isn't totally easy to use, even just for downloading the sources, we have automated snapshots of it made and stored at sourceforge itself.

Sourceforge's SSH access gives an automatable and secured way to update everything at http://psycle.sf.net/. The main uses i see are nightly builds, and the generated documentation of the sources. They need to be done locally on a dever's machine, and then, uploaded (or maybe RSync'ed if sourceforge has it). They can't be automated at sourceforge itself because sourceforge doesn't have MSVC, and even if they have doxygen to generate the source code textual documentation, they don't have graphviz's dot, which is needed to generate the source code diagram pictures.

About Psycle's documentation project, we would need some kind of restricted shared storage to let everyone who is really motivated add his contribution to a centralized repository. CVS would be ideal, but it is maybe too complex to use, and wiki is completly anarchic, imo, plus it requires to edit things on a little textarea in a page form, which is not a good editor for huge documents.

There are a lot of tools at sourceforge, like forums, RSS news, a documentation system, bug tracking, task assignments... Maybe we could decide to use some of them, but if the psycledelics site offers the same thing, let's use psycledelics instead. We can disable/hide those tools at sourceforge to prevent people from using the tools we don't want to use. For example, we currently only use the RSS news system at sourceforge to notify new file releases of Psycle binaries, and that's a loss of time since we have news at psycledelics too, so we could maybe disable it at sourceforce. (BTW, i didn't know more devers could have write access to psycledelic's development board).

Finally, i think the mailing list is the best tool for internal communication... it might just be that we forgot to use it :/


From [JAZ] on 17.07.2004, 15:53:

 

Hello there.

I haven't really acted as a project leader during the last months, but I've been trying to keep an eye and see that things don't go out of control.

I might be able to be the project leader. I am on the internet daily (at night), and lately i've been populating #psycle to see how things go and talk about development. In other words, i can still be the communication channel, if we set this right.

Bohan has been the project maintainer, which means being in charge of sourceforge ( using the site for those betas, documentation, and now the wiki), and did an impressive work on remaking the source code from 1.7.4 to 1.7.6, and it is still working on making further steps.

Other people has beein contributing, mainly with the help of people in #psycle (sampler, alk, bohan itself.. me from time to time), so we can say the project is not halted.

I'm happy to see this motivation on making a linux version of Psycle. In the last month (or two), I've been just a handful of hours under windows, whereas I have spent days in Debian. I even have wine installed, and a shortcut for Psycle (yes! i was going to make a compo song under linux! but it went unfinished).


ksn, the reorganization that you're proposing might be the good direction. A clean site would help improve the impression it gives to users and newcomers. Still, this doesn't mean to separate the sites. I would opt for decorating them similarly, with, maybe, a colour difference (to show the "area"), and sort of integrate them both (navigation though both sites).

Also, we know pasnotecut is not a great server, so if we can reduce its resources and use more the sourceforge's ones, that would make the user expecience better. (currently the bottleneck is these boards)(Btw, ksn... didn't you packed the posts back 2 or 3 years to improve performance? or that was with an older version of the site?)


Bohan: Probably you're the one that knows more how is everything now. We could start talking on what is needed, what is to be offered, and an estimated direction. (quite abstract sentence.. sorry..)

About tools, sourceforge's CVS is serving quite right. I had it setup under linux quite easily too. What might need to change is the structure inside it, although not that much.

I would opt to use sourceforge's tools when there's no better option useable (meaning, like.. why not use RSS feeds if psycledelics does not offer it?), but yes.. we need to disable some of the unused/duplicated things, and probably start using some others (bug tracking anyone?)


And yes.. first step should be starting to use again the dev list,and putting in all the newcomers.

(Ummm... is this long enough? )


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From DJMirage on 19.07.2004, 11:32:

 

would it maybe help to purge posts older then 3 months ?
or dont we want the posts to be lost :?


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From ksn on 19.07.2004, 16:21:

 

well i don't think the size of the database has something to do with this. as far as i remeber the boards (and the site) have always been slow, even with much smaller db.

the main problem is the way this site is done (badly). it uses a site template which was in beta mode back when sas modified it for psycledelics.

also it might be a specific problem with the database server of the hoster. when heatseeker is back we'll make some test with the new site code (even if it's supposed to still use the old database). or maybe we can host the database elsewhere and access it from this host...
or maybe the better solution would be to get totally rid of the old database with the new site. but this would mean the loss of all threads and songs.


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From DJMirage on 20.07.2004, 14:32:

 

mjah but a bunch of old songs are already broken download links in the song base.

as for the forums, I dunno if its handy to clear it. probably not.
but I think it does speed up the query time to the database.

bah well see when its in testing phase then


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From MfM on 20.07.2004, 16:23:

 

Concerning psycledelics site and #psycle:

KSN SAID:#psycle is now really detached form the rest of the 'community'.
I agree with him.
Because some weeks ago and for a few days I went on #psycle (for my first time!!)
I met many people I didn't know and what I had never seen on the psycledelics board…..
Certainly most of them seldom go on the psycledelics site!!
I think that these two things in the future must be joined so to have several people together….


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From DMNXS on 23.07.2004, 14:35:

 

I really want more developement info ...
Which "fusing" the two would support...

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